S4-Episode 9: Technology in the classroom: Digital education, privacy, and student well-being

Patricia Kosseim:

Hello. I'm Patricia Kosseim, Ontario's Information and Privacy Commissioner, and you're listening to Info Matters, a podcast about people, privacy, and access to information. We dive into conversations with people from all walks of life and hear real stories about the access and privacy issues that matter most to them. Hello, listeners, and welcome to another episode of Info Matters. For many of us, digital technologies have become deeply ingrained in our daily lives. From smartphones to laptops, digital tools have become an intrinsic part of how we work and live. For our young people, growing up in this digital first world means interacting with technology, not just at home, but also in their classrooms. Platforms like online learning apps, collaborative tools, and artificial intelligence are redefining how students learn.

But with these advancements come significant questions, how are these technologies impacting children's learning experiences? What about their privacy and well-being? And how can educators and schools strike the right balance between innovation and protection? In this episode, we'll unpack the evolving role of technology in the classroom, we'll explore the tools that are shaping the next generation of learners, and discuss the potential pitfalls that educators and policymakers need to address to create a safe and effective digital learning environment. My guest today is Anthony Carabache. He's a Staff Officer in the Professional Development Department at the Ontario English Catholic Teachers Association. He also serves as a valued member of the IPC Strategic Advisory Council.

Through his work, Anthony has a unique and critical perspective on the challenges and opportunities that technology can bring to the classroom. So whether you're an educator, a policymaker, a parent, or a student passionate about the intersection of technology and education, this conversation promises to be insightful, timely, and thought-provoking. Anthony, welcome to the show.

Anthony Carabache:

Thank you very much, Patricia. I'm so glad to be here.

PK:

Wonderful. Well then, let's get started. Can you start by telling us a bit about yourself and how you came to be part of the Professional Development Department at the Teacher's Association?

AC:

Sure. So I started in the classroom in 2001 as an educational assistant, and I've been in education since then. From 2001 to 2009, I was in the classroom working actually at the school that I attended, which isn't uncommon. Loved it very much, but was always looking for ways to integrate technology into the classroom because I found technology was a beautiful bridge to the next generation. So at that time, there was a posting with the Toronto Catholic District School Board to become a resource teacher in terms of integrating technology, and I just had to go for it. And in 2009, that's where I began a six-year journey learning about and providing professional development for the teachers in Toronto around how to integrate technology in the classroom, web design, social media. It was exciting times and I soon found that my role wasn't so much about teaching but more about managing change.

And once I came to terms with my role as a bridge between where we are and where we want to go, I really settled into this idea that I enjoy being a change agent. And once that switch was made, oh, it just changed the whole trajectory for me. And after six years of being a resource teacher and in that role with Toronto Catholic where we produce, Patricia, a lot of great work and even were recognized nationally for some of the work we did around what was then termed as 21st century learning, and the opportunity came to work with the OECTA as an instructor for integration of technology in the classroom. I made my opinion known about certain things. And at the time my predecessor said, "Okay, if you think you know so much, why don't you come here and do this job?" And the opportunity came up and I'm so thankful for my predecessor and my mentors here at OECTA.

I came on staff and since then I've been looking after all of our courses and I've watched the evolution of how educators across the world, but in particular here in Ontario, how they have adapted and changed their practice to use technology in the classroom. Today, that's really what I do, and in particular looking at how artificial intelligence is now affecting the way we learn, the way we teach in the modern classroom.

PK:

Wow. Thank you for that. I learned so much more about you, Anthony, and especially how technology has really interwoven throughout your career in the education systems. That's amazing. So you mentioned artificial intelligence in particular. Let me ask you, how do you think AI is impacting teachers today, both positively and negatively in the classroom?

AC:

Our students, as we all know, are quick to adapt to new technologies and are always in the realm of experimentation with new tools. And so at the outset, the first point of contact between a teacher in AI in Ontario, for the most part, has been students submitting work that may have been generated by artificial intelligence. And then, of course, there's the reaction to that, is this original work? Is this plagiarism? How does a teacher cope with this new submission style? And then on the other side of things, we hear of teachers utilizing artificial intelligence in terms of mitigating workload.

Some teachers are experimenting with how to use artificial intelligence around other portfolios that would help a teacher just conduct their day-to-day. And so we're keeping an eye on that, but I wouldn't say that it has yet swept across all of our teachers in Ontario in terms of usage. We still, I think, are in the early adoption phase and waiting to see what is going to happen.

PK:

Can you give me examples of how AI tools or applications would help the day-to-day work of a teacher?

AC:

It's hard to give specific examples, but I know that in terms of perhaps scheduling, artificial intelligence can be quite helpful, if it's used. If the prompts and the knowledge of the user is strong, then you can certainly leverage the tool to assist you. I know that some teachers will be using it to assist with planning and some teachers will be using it to assist with assessments. I'm not of that position yet where I would say that that's a useful way to use artificial intelligence. But those stories are out there and there are teachers who are experimenting because teachers can be quite innovative and they're called to be innovative. And often, in some places in the province, are actually encouraged and pushed to be innovative.

And so I'm only leery when I cite examples because there's still a lot of groundwork that has to be done before we can just put those out into the ether to say, "Teachers are doing this or that." I'm very careful, Patricia, that I don't want to establish what we would call best practices. It's far too early to do that.

PK:

Right. And I mean, those are very good concrete examples of how teachers may or may not be using AI. But, of course, we all use AI every day when we do a Google search or when we use geolocation maps or we use Google Translate. So in a lot of ways, we've all had contact, to use your term, with AI long ago and on a day-to-day basis. So it's good to keep those things in perspective. With the increasing use of technology platforms, commercial apps, and other third party tools in the classroom, we're seeing more and more privatization seeping into the public education system. Is that something you're seeing as well, Anthony?

AC:

I'm so glad you asked that question, and I love that you used the word seeping because I was looking for a term that I could use in some of my talks, and the term that I've been using is gateway, because the technology, the third party providers are already embedded in our education system. And I witnessed that firsthand in the early 2000s when vendor after vendor would come knocking on the school board's door looking for an opportunity to license their third party application. So at that time it made sense because it literally was a tool. It was an additional strategy that we would use, whatever that third party was offering. But now, as you say, it's not just that we have a lineup of third party applicants coming in to sell their wares.

They're knocking down the door because there is a recognition now, and it's unfortunate, that taxpayer dollars are now a part of the marketplace and third party companies are coming in and offering solutions. But there are techniques now where a solution to them is not so much a problem for us. So we're sold a problem and then we're sold the solution. This is really opening up a gateway of updates and more software coming into our public school system that is quite invasive. So what we may have started with, I will call the company Zed, for example. So company Zed has offered its services in the mid-2000s and it stayed licensed. Year after year, it has been licensed, but now it has upgraded and updated its own infrastructure. And, yes, artificial intelligence and the algorithm have been a part of that.

That is now a part of that school board or the province's infrastructure, so now we have a company that's deeply embedded in our system. It paves the way for the same behavior to happen for other companies. And we see this, this is happening already. So we have a multitude of school boards across Ontario and I would say across the world that have subscriptions to private companies' proprietary software. That's locked down and that's only available to the company and maybe one or two people at the school board, and the users of that software are among the most vulnerable on the planet, our students. And so that becomes a huge, of course, a privacy concern and we become increasingly concerned around manipulation, especially around commercialization.

PK:

It's interesting because very recently data protection authorities around the world did what we call a sweep and looked at the websites and apps of commercial companies and found that many were using persuasive technologies and deceptive design features to influence user behavior, particularly aimed at children. And so very recently, my office together with my federal, provincial, and territorial colleagues issued a resolution, a joint resolution calling on public and private sector organizations to avoid platform designs and practices that influence, manipulate, or coerce users into making decisions sometimes against their own privacy interests. Do you see these kinds of deceptive design features playing out in the education space?

AC:

Well, certainly, but first I want to commend the Privacy Commissioners Offices across the country and federally for putting such a resolution forward and introducing the whole idea of deceptive design. I have seen that over the last 20 years, for sure, because when you engage with an entity driven by profit, ethics will always take the back seat. And the technology is rooted in a whole course of study known as persuasive technology. And persuasive technology is specifically designed to keep everyone hooked, and everything that you see, everything that you've experienced on your mobile phone is designed to promote addictive behavior and to nudge the way you think. And it does it incrementally over time, as you know.

The call to review how third-party companies are designing their products is so timely and the resolution on deceptive design that's been tabled by the Privacy Commissioners across the country and supported federally is so needed at this time. So I do think it's important for us to recognize that this is purposeful, it's driven by profit, and unless we find a way to regulate it or instill guardrails, guidelines do not survive in a profit free capital world, at least that's my experience.

PK:

So it's obviously clear and just based on your own experience, and not to mention the evolving practice, as you say, over the past 20 years that more and more there's this intertwine between public and private sectors in the education system. Recently, my office released guidance to help public sector organizations identify privacy and access considerations when they're selecting and contracting with third-party vendors or in your case providers of digital education tools in the classroom. Mind you, it can be pretty difficult for a school to negotiate a contract with a massive corporation like Google on its own, but how can associations or sectors or boards have greater negotiation power and influence when entering into these contractual relations with third-party vendors?

AC:

I think this is a very important point to discuss, Patricia. In terms of what you've released, that in my opinion, is an excellent framework to guide public offices and public institutions in terms of procurement. That is really the second place, outside of regulation. That is really the second most important place, an empowering place for our school board officials to protect our most vulnerable and their staff. Everybody benefits from that. So those guidelines and that understanding of what is safe and what is not, how to revalue privacy, how to revalue skill development, that happens during the procurement process. And we have to be mindful of a few things.

The senior staff at the school board level are educators, but to my knowledge, there's very little training in terms of the questions that you ask during procurement and how we integrate the vision and the goals and the ethics and the morality and the belief systems of the organization that we work for into that process. And if more people were, first of all, a little more curious, then they could tap into resources that are being provided by your office, Patricia, and say, "We can introduce these as policy, as guidelines.
So there is so much value in the idea that you're proposing and you have laid the framework for that, which I think is important. But the reality is we need leadership to step up and say, "Let's use these guidelines as the framework for procurement at our schools, at our board for all technology."

PK:

And, of course, the more schools and school boards that do that across the province, the more leverage and bargaining power you have when contracting with these third party vendors.

AC:

Exactly.

PK:

There's certainly strength in numbers, that's for sure. Much of what we're talking about here in Ontario is critically important, but frankly it's happening across the country and even around the world. Just recently I led a panel at the Global Privacy Assembly about privacy education from the ground up, and we had international speakers from the U.K., from France, from Hong Kong, from Canada talk about the importance of not only protecting the privacy of children and youth, but also engaging and empowering young people to make good choices when it comes to their personal information.

What are your thoughts based on your decades of experience both in the classroom and with teachers on steps that regulators, schools, and associations like yours can take to engage and empower children in this way so they better understand and exercise their digital privacy rights?

AC:

I think education is the key to everything. It's the key to rising from any situation in which you feel disadvantaged, and right now we are at a huge disadvantage in terms of what we give up to who we're giving that up to. We're not giving up our privacy to a kind actor or any actor who is looking out for our best interests, we are giving up our privacy to commercial actors, and only through education can we negotiate the idea of adding value back to privacy. And I think we have to talk about, why would a child aged 15, as an example, value their privacy? What is the impetus when giving that privacy up gives them access to hundreds and hundreds of eye-pleasing and deceptively designed pieces of software meant to keep their eyes on the screen? So I do believe it's an uphill battle. Privacy is not a very attractive thing to talk about, and I'm happy that there are champions of it, and I do think it has changed over time as we see more harm being done.

And so for teachers and for all educators across the world, yet another stand they have to take. And if it's not going to happen in the classroom, you hope it happens at home. But with the rapid change, it's difficult for everyone, everyone to keep up with, what's the difference between this privacy policy and that privacy policy? And I can't use this application unless I agree to give up my privacy. So as you said earlier, there are strength in numbers and if we as a realm of educators all over the world give our students the tools to say no and to overcome FOMO, the fear of missing out, which is a huge psychological tool that's used by the companies, it's very powerful. But we can do it. We can do it through education. We can do it. I believe we can, and I believe that the next generation coming up, they're very intelligent, they're attuned. They have more access to information than ever before and I do believe they want to do what's right.

PK:

Well, that's very inspiring and a great call to action. Recently, the province set out some new curriculum expectations for digital literacy and digital citizenship in Ontario schools, including things like teaching students the digital literacy knowledge and skills they need to navigate digital environments to better manage their data security and privacy. So do you think that's a good foundation to start with? Do you think there should be more? What are your views?

AC:

Well, certainly, teachers already have so much on their plates, and I would be remiss if I didn't say we are still in a post-pandemic recovery. It's my firm belief that the time spent online during the pandemic is still playing out today and that the resources that teachers need to implement things suggested in the curriculum are far more than what they have at their fingertips. When we talk about digital literacy, I think we first have to talk about social literacy. There's an entire cohort that is relearning how to socialize with each other. They're relearning how to speak to one another an in non-anonymous manner, which essentially is really me saying in a kind way. And so schools, teachers, principals, everyone in education, EACYW, social workers, everyone has witnessed just how dark the online world could be through the pandemic.

And so we can change the curriculum all we want and we can infuse certain expectations and expect our educators who are already working really hard just to bring students back into a sense of belonging and a sense of compassion and a sense of caring and forgiveness, but without that basic understanding of what it means to be a caring and careful citizen, one who feels responsibility towards others, all of the other initiatives, unfortunately, it doesn't make sense. We have to look at basic human needs first and then we can strengthen our position on digital literacy because we know those that design these apps prey upon those that have the least and are most disadvantaged.

So we have to strengthen them first. We have to provide them with programs that are supportive of their emotional growth, of their social understanding, these basic things. So all of that is to say, Patricia, I'm happy anytime somebody wants to inject a critical thinking lens in our literacy programs for the digital world. That's great, but the reality is we still have to climb out of that social deficit that we're in before we can really address what's happening online.

PK:

I think you've just opened my eyes and probably the eyes of many listeners to the reality, but someone like you in your role, obviously, are seeing the lasting impacts of the pandemic on this cohort of children who stayed at home for a number of years at such a critical time in their life when socializing, you're absolutely right, was part of their development of human growth and you're just playing catch up. So wow, thanks for that perspective. But if it can help teachers who are struggling with all of these priorities, we do have classroom-ready lesson plans on our website for different age and grade categories on how to integrate privacy literacy in the classroom. As part of that curriculum, we do talk about the importance of empathy and for kids to really understand the impacts that they have on others, on their friends when they say and do things online.

There's a lot of wraparound skills that kids need and hopefully, anyway, the lesson plans that we developed with Media Smarts can help some of those teachers with some of the daunting tasks they have ahead of them in this context. So thank you for that. As you know, my office recently launched a digital privacy charter for Ontario schools, and it sets out 12 commitments for Ontario schools and school boards to support students' privacy through both protection but also empowerment, as we've been talking about. And our hope is very much to have schools and school boards throughout Ontario pledge their support to this charter. And a few have already signed up so far, so we are very pleased with those early adopters. In your view, what's the leadership opportunity here for schools and school boards to proactively sign on to a charter like this?

AC:

It's a great opportunity. I think anytime you ask an organization's leadership to sign on, it's a huge opportunity for that leadership to really show their priority. Because, from that, what we say is, "Well, you plant one seed, but you have no idea how many branches will grow," and if one leader at every public institution were to look at this and be the champion for this digital privacy charter, so many things can grow out of it. Programs and professional development, policy, even as we were talking before, a way to look at the procurement process, it's a lot of coordination. I don't think everyone quite understands how integrated this is, this idea of privacy and the use of technology, how integrated it is into just about every department in a public institution. And so this provides a framework. It answers the question, "I know that there's a problem, but I'm not sure how to address it. I don't know where to begin."

This is available as a resource for, I hope, leaders to see and to sign on to. And then here's my concern. This charter is a magnificent starting point. It's a great framework. I worry that organizations use it to check a box. And what we're looking for are champions because the champion won't let the organization just check the box. The champion is going to ask, "What else can we do with this?" And watch it grow into other initiatives. And so I would love to see commitments come back and, again, it doesn't have to be regulated or mandatory, but to challenge the field and say, "Show us not only, okay, we understand you're committed because you've signed on. Well, who's your champion?" Can we bring them together and start a movement about how we change the conversation in the public school system?

PK:

You talked about the charter as a framework, and it certainly is at this stage a lot of the commitments in the charter are in current law and or about to be in future law. As Bill 194 makes its way through the legislative process, it will introduce many more requirements for the use of digital technologies in schools, particularly aimed at individuals under the age of 18. So this is coming. What are your views of the bill's proposal to regulate digital technologies aimed at children in schools?

AC:

Absolutely. I'm all for it. So this is my opinion and not necessarily the opinion of my organization. However, we are seriously lacking trust in third-party providers or companies that are coming in and providing services. And I'm putting up my air quotations around services, gamification, and other types of deceptive design. I believe that the bill is very well-intentioned because without that kind of muscle, without that kind of backing, I think we're susceptible and the kids are susceptible. I don't always want to say, "Oh, but the children. Somebody think of the children." No, we got to think of the children because, holy smokes, if all of these things are directed at them, then what chance do we have?

PK:

Well, you know because you are on our Strategic Advisory Council. So one of our strategic priorities at the IPC is children and youth in a digital world, and our goal there is to champion the access and privacy rights of Ontario's children and youth by promoting their digital literacy and expanding their digital rights while at the same time holding institutions accountable for protecting the children and youth that they serve. What, in your view, do you think that the IPC can do differently or better to try to advance this priority goal?

AC:

I think we're all at the same point asking the same question, because I think there are certain realities that we have to cope with, and the power of a free market has to be acknowledged. So I think that the meetings that the IPC holds are important. I think when I consider a pillar that I lean on, it's important that the regulator is that pillar. You have to be a part of that conversation. And what's more is there have to be actionable items that come out of initiatives such as the ones that the IPC has. So I would say, continue with the work. Continue with projects like this podcast. Maybe jump into some creative advertising. Find out where the kids are. Find out where the students are. Let's circumvent whoever we need to, to get our students' eyes on your message.

And if you recall, what was it back in the 2000s? We had the House Hippo commercial. It was a great ad, and I still show, and if you haven't seen it, just YouTube "The House Hippo", and it's so elegant and it stood the test of time, but it requires the effort of a parent or an educator to put it in front of the eyes of a student. And I recognize it's costly when we talk about marketing and advertising, but isn't that what you're up against, Patricia? You're really standing against a monster marketing machine, and if you're not popping up on that screen, if someone's doom scrolling and it's not the IPC, I can guarantee it, then what chance do we have to get the message out there?

So there's opportunity there. I think there's a lot of opportunity there. And you have champions. You do. You have many, many champions. You just have to really tap more and more on the shoulder, which means you'll have to double or triple your staff, I'm sure. But it's amazing what you're doing with what you have.

PK:

Well, thank you so much. It gives me great hope and inspiration to work alongside champions like you, Anthony, and others. And especially I want to give a shout-out to our staff, as you said, who are extraordinary in helping do a lot with what we have. But also our Youth Advisory Council. We have a group of young persons from a broad range of perspectives and other backgrounds to help inform our work. And they are extraordinary. They help us do exactly what you said, Anthony, and we need to do more of, which is help us be relevant. Help us get in front of the eyes of this younger demographic in a relevant way that actually has meaning to them and will help support them in their ongoing education about all the things we talked about, technology, digital privacy, security. And so we will lean on them as we will lean on you and other champions. Thank you so much for joining us today, Anthony.

AC:

My pleasure, and thank you.

PK:

Well, we've covered so much ground in our conversation today from the integration of technology and education and the growing influence of AI to the pressing need for privacy protection and digital literacy in our schools. As we navigate the evolving digital landscape, it's clear that collaboration and proactive measures are key to ensuring children and youth are not only protected, but also empowered to thrive as responsible digital citizens. For listeners who want to learn more about the IPC's Digital Privacy Charter for Ontario schools, there's a link in the show notes. We've also included links to some of our other Info Matters episodes about privacy and access issues facing children and youth. The IPC has free activity books and lesson plans to teach kids about privacy on our website at ipc.on.ca. And you can find us on Instagram at ipsc.ontario.

Well, we've come to the end of another fascinating episode. Thank you so much for listening, and until next time, I'm Patricia Kosseim, Ontario's Information and Privacy Commissioner. And this has been Info Matters. If you enjoy the podcast, leave us a rating or review. If there's an access or privacy topic you'd like us to explore on a future episode, we'd love to hear from you. Send us a tweet @ipcinfoprivacy or email us at @email. Thanks for listening, and please join us again for more conversations about people, privacy, and access to information. If it matters to you, it matters to me.