S4-Episode 1: In their own words: Students from Westboro Academy speak out about privacy

Patricia Kosseim:

Hello. I’m Patricia Kosseim, Ontario’s Information and Privacy Commissioner. And you’re listening to Info Matters, a podcast about people, privacy and access to information. We dive into conversations with people from all walks of life and hear real stories about the access and privacy issues that matter most to them.

Hello, listeners, and welcome to our first episode of season four of Info Matters. We’re taking the show on the road and turning the mic over to students from Westboro Academy here in Ottawa to explore a topic that’s not just top of mind today, but essential for their flourishing and success into the future. And that topic is privacy.

Westboro Academy is a bilingual school, so I’ll be speaking with grade seven and eight students today in both English and French. They’re going to share their perspectives on what privacy means to them, how they navigate digital spaces and the strategies they use to protect their privacy when they go online.

We’re also going to hear from Elyane Ruel, head of the school here at Westboro Academy, about the technologies that students are using in the classroom and about the school’s general approach to teaching young people about privacy. And that means helping them protect their personal information, empowering them to make informed choices, and of course, showing them how to become responsible digital citizens.

So, whether you’re an educator or a parent, we hope you’ll gain a better understanding of what it’s like for young people navigating today’s digital landscape and to hear it from their voice.

Elyane, Gaja, Henrik, Isaac, Tej, welcome to the show. I’m so excited to be having this conversation with you about privacy and what you think privacy means to you and how you go about protecting it in your day-to-day activities. So, why don’t we get started and I’m going to start maybe with Henrik. Can I start with you? All right. So, a lot of people say that kids don’t care about privacy anymore. What do you think about that?

Henrik:

I don’t think it’s as much that they don’t care about privacy. I think it’s more that they don’t know and they don’t think about it. When they’re online, that’s not what they’re thinking about. So, if they were taught about it or reminded about it, that could help.

Patricia Kosseim:

That’s a really fair point. And what do you guys think? Do you care about privacy?

Gaja:

I’m pretty sure children, they care about privacy, but as Henrik said, they don’t know everything about it. And also, I feel like their parents know more about it because they’ve lived longer and they’ve seen what privacy and what sharing privacy can do.

Patricia Kosseim:

So, in a sense, people like me, teachers, parents, we have a role to play to teach you about privacy and teach young kids about privacy. Do you agree, Tej?

Tej:

Yeah. I think that our parents are telling us about bad things that can happen on a device to show us that we need to be safe when we’re online.

Patricia Kosseim:

What about you Isaac, do you care about privacy?

Isaac:

Yes. I actually do care a lot about privacy. And like Henrik said, I think that it’s not that children don’t know about privacy or don’t care about it, it’s that they don’t fully understand the consequences of how they act online.

Patricia Kosseim:

Right. That’s a good point. Good for me to take away and think about and work on with my colleagues back at the office. Gaja, I’m going to ask you something more philosophical. What does privacy really mean to you, how would you define it for you?

Gaja:

That’s a hard question. I’ll put it this way. If you’re in a room and you want privacy, you close it off. So, technically, privacy would be like it’s closed off and it’s to you or to your family. And it’s information that would be yours and you could share with other people, you don’t have to share it with other people and it’s your decision to, but I feel like it’s something that’s closed off your information, like privacy online could be your information, your address, all of that.

Patricia Kosseim:

So, it’s like keeping information closed in a room like you say and you decide when you want to open the doors or the windows for other people to see or to come in. That’s a good concept. What about you guys, what does privacy mean to you, Henrik?

Henrik:

It’s knowing who’s seeing what you have or what you share. And it’s like knowing who doesn’t see what you have and what you share, so that if there’s something that you want to keep secret or just between you and another person that you know that no one else is going to figure out about this.

Patricia Kosseim:

So, it’s really about controlling who gets that information or not. And you sharing essentially when you want to with whomever you want to and on whatever terms, right?

Henrik:

Yeah.

Patricia Kosseim:

Tej, what does privacy mean to you?

Tej:

I feel like it’s a bit of a safety blanket. It protects me from letting everyone know what happens in my life because my life is my personal thing and I think when some people try to take that privacy, it’s hard to get away from that.

Patricia Kosseim:

Or to get it back.

Tej:

Yeah. To get it back.

Patricia Kosseim:

Once the genie’s out of the bottle, it’s out.

Tej:

Yeah.

Patricia Kosseim:

That’s really insightful. What about you, Isaac, what does privacy mean to you?

Isaac:

I guess I agree with everybody here. It’s basically how you want to keep all your secrets and that I also think it’s a bit about trust, like if you give it to someone and you have to trust them to keep it to themselves.

Patricia Kosseim:

Wow. That’s a really good point. So, you can share it, you can control who you share it to, but you have to trust that that person’s going to respect your confidence, right?

Isaac:

Exactly.

Patricia Kosseim:

Oh, that’s such a good point. I want to ask Tej, the concept of privacy is about controlling who gets to see your information. Are there times when you want to share something or some personal information with some people but not with others?

Tej:

Yeah. All the time. If I’m playing some games with my friends, of course I’m going to want to share my usernames with them, but I don’t think I’d go out of my way to give it to some random person that I just met on the street. And sometimes, I think it’s important to keep the privacy that you’ve gotten from other people and not give it out to other people because it’s their privacy that they’ve trusted you to have.

Patricia Kosseim:

So, it’s about relationships with different people and wanting to share information with them for some reasons, but not with others.

Tej:

Yeah.

Patricia Kosseim:

There’s things you want to share with friends, but not with commercial companies or things you want to even tell your parents, but you don’t want people outside the family to know, things like that? What about you, Gaja?

Gaja:

I would tell some people that are my acquaintances some things, but I would tell my best friends or my families other things. And like Tej said, I would give as he said, my username if I’m going to play something with them. But I would not give it to say my acquaintance if we’re not really good friends, I wouldn’t give it to them.

Patricia Kosseim:

So, you exercise your own judgment in deciding how much you want to tell some people and not others. What about you, Isaac?

Isaac:

So, me, I think if I’m having complicated emotions, I would only tell the people that I feel really close to and I trust a lot like my family or my really best friends because you probably don’t want a lot of people knowing what you’re feeling in the moment as there can be a lot of things like people might make fun of you for it or people might always crowd you and ask you questions about everything.

Patricia Kosseim:

So, it goes back to that question of trust you said before.

Isaac:

Yeah.

Patricia Kosseim:

Yeah. Such a good point. Henrik?

Henrik:

It doesn’t have to be about a secret or something that’s bad. It could also be about, I don’t know if you want to say that I have an idea for a birthday present for someone and you just want to keep that private and not tell them, but that could be an example, too.

Patricia Kosseim:

So, things you want to keep private, it doesn’t mean it’s things you have to be ashamed about or it could be good things, but you just want to keep them for yourself. That’s a good point. Gaja, how do you protect your personal information when you go online? What do you do?

Gaja:

I tell my parents if I’m going to share information with a website. If the website or the game looks sketchy like a recipe website and they’re like, I need your address, then that looks sketchy and I won’t give it to them. So, it’s also about judgment, too. If this person’s asking for a bunch of information and it’s not in the right time or the right place, then that would be somewhere where I wouldn’t give them my information.

Patricia Kosseim:

So, there are tricks that you look for or there are things that give you a feeling or an instinct or an intuition that they’re just not right. Isaac, what do you have as tricks or strategies for protecting yourself online?

Isaac:

At the very basic, don’t give people your passwords. Don’t communicate with people you don’t know extensively. Maybe if you’re playing a game that has teamwork, you can communicate them a bit in the chat, but don’t give them information about where you live. If you’re putting information into a website or something, you can always ask your parents as they probably have more experience with this than you do. And they can help guide you to see is this a good website to give your information to and is it trustworthy? And then yeah, eventually you’ll learn for yourself some ways to see if it’s good or not.

Patricia Kosseim:

Yeah. Good. So, exercise your own judgment. Ask your parents for help. Look for tricky signs that just don’t seem right. What about you, Tej, what do you do?

Tej:

If I’m signing up for anything important, like if I’m getting an app, I would definitely tell my parents. If we’re using Snapchat for example, a new thing has been implemented where they ask to see your location so that your friends can see it. And I think it’s really scary to have that app sometimes because if someone can find your location, then who’s to say what they can do with the location? So, I try to stay away from those types of apps, but I also use VPNs.

Patricia Kosseim:

Well, that’s pretty good. And again, you’re learning. You’re asking your parents. You’re asking your teachers. You’re getting more information before you sign up for things to make sure that they’re legit and that you’re giving only the right amount of information that you need. And sometimes there’s settings for apps and you can go in and you can change the settings to be more privacy protective. And if you don’t know how, again, you can ask your parents. What about you, Henrik?

Henrik:

I’m always careful with apps that don’t actually need my address. So, when you’re going on and you’re just going to get quickly if it’s a game and you’re excited to play or whatever, and then right at the beginning it’ll ask you, “Oh, can we track your address or where you are right now?” And it’s like a quick little thing where you don’t really think about it and they want you to just press “yes” that they can use that information. So, I always have to be careful.

Patricia Kosseim:

I remember one app that was very famous. It was a flashlight app that just a flashlight app on your phone and yet they were asking for all your contact information. So, there’s a good example like, “Geez,” scratch your head, “why do you need my friend’s contact information in order to just give me a flashlight on my phone?” So, you guys are onto good stuff. You have good instincts. That’s good. And you ask most importantly for help, which is a good idea.

Henrik, comment tu respectes la vie privée des autres personnes?

Henrik:

Je ne partage pas comme les photos ou les vidéos des personnes, et s’ils me demandent de ne pas dire ça à quelqu’un, je vais le faire.

Patricia Kosseim:

Donc, tu respectes ce qu’ils te demandent, ce qu’ils de faire ou de ne pas faire?

Henrik:

Oui.

Patricia Kosseim:

Donc, c’est une question de respect, finalement, et de confidentialité, de garder la confiance des gens qui partagent des informations personnelles avec toi.

Patricia Kosseim:

Gaja, qu’est-ce que tu fais au sujet des photos, par exemple, des autres personnes? Quand tu veux prendre une photo de quelqu’un ou que tu veux afficher une photo d’eux, de quelqu’un d’autre, comment tu gères ça?

Gaja:

Bien, je demande toujours la permission. S’ils disent non, je respecte leur décision. Si je dis oui et je vais partager cette photo, je vais demander encore parce que c’est pas la mienne, c’est leur photo. Et si c’est quelque chose qu’ils ne veulent pas que je donne à d’autres personnes, je vais respecter leur décision.

Patricia Kosseim:

Donc, tu demandes leur permission pour prendre la photo et, ensuite, pour partager la photo?

Gaja:

Oui.

Patricia Kosseim:

Ça, c’est bien. Super. Isaac, qu’est-ce que tu fais pour protéger la vie privée des autres personnes?

Isaac:

Je ne leur demande pas pour des mots de passe et d’autres choses comme ça. S’ils me confient une information ou s’ils me disent quelque chose à propos de leur vie privée, comme quelque chose qui les rendent tristes ou une émotion qu’ils ont, je ne le dis à personne, car il y a toujours une raison pourquoi ils choisissent à te le dire et ne pas le dire aux autres personnes.

Patricia Kosseim:

Donc, vous êtes de bons amis, han? Vous êtes de très bons amis.

Isaac, do you know anybody who’s ever posted something online that they later think, kind of regret having done that? And how easy do you think it is for somebody to take information down once they’ve posted it?

Isaac:

Well, yes, I have known people who have regretted what they posted online. And I think that technically, it’s easy to get rid of something. You just press the delete button. But in the real world, it’s actually hard to erase it from everything because people can take screenshots or repost it to other people and things like that.

Patricia Kosseim:

Gosh, you’re really smart. That’s really good to know. And you’re right, you can’t just erase it and think it’s gone forever. There’s so many other places it could have gone. So, Gaja, what do you think, do you know people who’ve regretted it and what can they do about it or what have they done about it?

Gaja:

I’ve known a lot of people that regretted texting someone something. It was usually a bad thing and they’ve apologized. They’ve done all they can. They tried to make sure that no one else had it, that everyone knows both sides of the story. But still, it did hurt someone’s feelings and it is on there forever and people did take screenshots and it’s just you probably should think twice before you post something or text something or do something just to make sure that it is the right thing to do.

Patricia Kosseim:

That’s smart. So, think upfront before you even press send or think before you click as they say. Tej, what about you?

Tej:

Same thing as Gaja and Isaac. The one big thing that my parents always tell me is anything can be recovered and you never know what someone can do with that. And it’s not good to post these things because it’s like karma, it’ll always get back to you.

Patricia Kosseim:

So, again, it comes back to thinking before so that you prevent these regrets. You take measures upfront to avoid that kind of situation. What about you, Henrik?

Henrik:

Yeah. So, even famous people before they become famous, there’s something that they wrote and after they become famous, someone finds it later, everyone’s opinion on them is different. Once you’ve pressed send or posted something, it’s out and it’ll never get deleted completely. And even if it’s not to the world, even if it’s to one person, if they take a screenshot, send it to someone else or they take a screenshot and post it, then everyone, the whole world has it. So, you always have to be careful and think, like what you said, before you click. And just to think that if someone else were to see this, then what would they think?

Patricia Kosseim:

So, in terms of controlling the personal information you share with a certain person and a certain relationship, it’s all about the context, but you have to think about what are the impacts if this information were shared outside the context, like you said, people right now they might share information that they’re fine with, but years later, they might regret.

When you share information now as a kid it seems harmless enough if you were at a party or something, but then later when you want to get a job, you don’t want your potential employer seeing you in silly situations that might impact your chances of getting the job. So, that’s all about context. So, that’s good. It’s good. You’ve got good instincts there. Tej, are there things that worry you about being online?

Tej:

Yeah. A bunch because anything you do can always come back to you. Sometimes if I give my location to apps scares me and social media. On social media apps like Instagram, you can allow them to use your camera and your microphone. That scares me because I never know what they can do with it.

Patricia Kosseim:

And what about the rest of you, what worries you? Gaja, what worries you?

Gaja:

I worry online also about AI, artificial intelligence because once they have your voice, they can mimic your voice. They can do so many things and it’s just developing. When developers develop it more, honestly, it could get dangerous. I’m not saying artificial intelligence is bad. There are some good things that you can do with it, but I’m just saying that there are some downsides to it.

Patricia Kosseim:

You’re absolutely right. There’s great important things to do with AI, but then there’s what just happened to Taylor Swift. She got fake videos made about her and that’s not fair, because she didn’t create those videos and it’s unfair to artificially fabricate false information about her. So, that’s the downsides of AI for sure, despite the benefits. What about you, Isaac? What worries you?

Isaac:

So, when I go online, like right now in the present, there’s not that much that worries me because I mean, my parents make sure that I only use websites like maybe YouTube, like Roblox, Minecraft and then Messenger Kids, but that’s all. So then, really the only ways that something bad could happen to me personally would be if I gave my password to somebody and I feel confident that I don’t think I’m actually ever going to do that.

But then big picture, I guess maybe voice mimicking like Gaja said, I know I tested it with some of my friends one time and right now, it’s really hard to get an actual really good one. The one we tried out, it had no emotion in it, so you could tell it wasn’t a real person talking. But later, I think it might get a lot more realistic.

Patricia Kosseim:

You’re right, as the technology gets better, that is something to worry about. What about you, Henrik? What do you worry about online?

Henrik:

I think even the Alexa, Siri thing is a little bit worrisome for me. If they can hear your voice say, “Hey Alexa,” “Hey Siri,” then they can hear anything that you talk about. So, having your phone nearby, if it’s one of the voice-activated ones, they could be listening to everything you say. So, it just is a little bit worrisome.

Patricia Kosseim:

So, now that we all know what you worry about, what do you think adults can do to help you and make you feel more comfortable when you’re online? Either your parents or your teachers or people like me who enforce privacy laws. What can we do to make you worry less and feel more comfortable when you’re learning online? Isaac?

Isaac:

Some things you could do is maybe find ways to inform a lot of people about what to do and what not to do. I know for all the younger people, we really enjoy playing games. So, you guys could make a situation game, like you’re in this situation, what would you do here to help kids understand what happens, because their actions and what to do in a situation where somebody’s asking for your password or there’s a sketchy situation.

Patricia Kosseim:

We created some games and activities for kids in this privacy pursuit book and I’m going to leave you a few so you can play with these games and these activities. But maybe we should do a video game, that would be even better. Maybe that’s the next generation game we can do. What about you, Gaja? What can adults do to help you feel more comfortable?

Gaja:

I feel like in schools, they should also teach kids about privacy because sometimes at home, they don’t learn about it, but most people do go to school and if they learn it in school, then sometimes they realize what’s happening. So, it would be much easier if you could teach it at school and you teach math and English and history and it would inform a lot of younger people the benefits but also the bad things that happen when you are online.

Patricia Kosseim:

And that’s a good point because a lot of parents don’t really know. They’re not experts. They don’t know all of the bad things that can happen and that’s why sometimes, including this kind of information in schools is a good way of supplementing the kind of education you get at home. So, both of them together will give you more support. What about you, Tej?

Tej:

I think that providing us with the information about how we can act safely and smarter on devices is good, too. I think if you also make it relatable for us, I think it would make more of a difference because when we talk about these things, we talk about how this person did that and how this person did that, but I don’t think we actually understand if our parents or teachers don’t make it more interesting. I think sitting through a conversation like that, I think we would relatively be bored and I don’t think we would want to listen to it. And so, that’s really what I think.

Patricia Kosseim:

So, we can’t talk like this and tell you about privacy. We have to make it fun and relatable, right?

Tej:

Yeah.

Patricia Kosseim:

And going back to games and videos and building it into the school curriculum, so you’re learning it as you’re doing it. Situational, giving you scenarios, things like that to make it real life in a way. And what about you, Henrik?

Henrik:

I think just teaching kids about the consequences of your actions and that there could be a permanent black mark around your name and it’ll never go away for your life. And so, if you teach them about the consequences, then they could be more aware as they’re online and making decisions online.

Patricia Kosseim:

So, teaching them about potential consequences without necessarily scaring them. But just as you say, telling them what the consequences are so that they’re more alert when they download an app or they’re asked questions about sharing information. That makes a lot of sense.

Just by having this conversation with me, you’re teaching other people because we’re going to share this podcast with lots of other young students in Ontario and they’re going to learn from you. They’re going to be inspired by some of the things you said today. And for that, I want to say a big thank you for agreeing to do this. It took a lot of courage to meet with me today. I hope you enjoyed it and had fun. I certainly did.

Yeah. So, you let me know through your teacher and your principal if there’s any other resources that we can provide you to make essentially life easier for you and so that you grow up with smiles on your faces and confident that you have a bright future ahead of you. Thank you so much for joining me.

Gaja:

Thank you.

Tej:

Thank you.

Isaac:

Thank you.

Henrik:

Thank you.

Patricia Kosseim:

Thank you. So, Elyane, let’s turn it over to you. Tell us a little bit about yourself and how is it that you came to work at Westboro Academy?

Elyane Ruel:

So, I’m one of those people that always knew that they wanted to go into education. And about 30 years ago, I started teaching in the Inuit community. And then I went overseas for what I thought was going to be a two or three year adventure. And then 30 years later after the pandemic started missing home and decided it was time to return to Canada.

And at the same time, I stumbled across this job ad for a lovely small community-driven bilingual school in Ottawa. I love living in capital cities because of just all the different perspectives and diversity. I was brought up bilingual. I share the community values. It was just one of those perfect fits at the perfect time.

Patricia Kosseim:

Formidable. Et voici, vous êtes rendue.

Elyane Ruel:

Oui, je suis rentrée à la maison.

Patricia Kosseim:

So, obviously you’ve been a principal at schools around the world as you say. How would you compare Canada to other countries when it comes to technology use among students?

Elyane Ruel:

So, I’ve been working international schools that deal with an expat community and it’s actually surprisingly the same everywhere around the world, where kids are using technology nonstop. I find unfortunately there they’re more often consumers of technology than creators or producers. But what they actually do with technology doesn’t change much. I think sometimes in international settings, they use it more as a communication tool because they’re so far away from friends and family.

But beyond that, it’s the same thing. They love to TikTok all over the place and they love Roblox and they use Google Classrooms and all of that. It’s the same pretty much anywhere you go.

Patricia Kosseim:

And so, schools use online education platforms and technology to advance learning. And what kind of technologies are Westboro students using in the classroom and how do you ensure as their principal that these tools align with best practices for protecting their privacy?

Elyane Ruel:

The applications that we use, whether it’s software, website, they’re almost always educationally based, so it’ll be Google Classroom or now Canvas has a version for education and things like that and they come with built-in safety measures. So, for example, in Canva, all the kids have an account, but it’s set as a student account. So, they’re limited in how they can share and things like that. So, using websites that are designed for schools, they come with those built-in safety measures that we can use.

Patricia Kosseim:

Il y a une question de plus en plus dans les écoles. On entend parler d’une interdiction aux élèves d’utiliser leur téléphone cellulaire en classe. Quelle est votre opinion sur le sujet?

Elyane Ruel:

Je pense que ça dépend beaucoup du contexte. Pour moi, de tout simplement interdire le téléphone, c’est un peu comme se mettre la tête dans le sable. Les téléphones sont là, ils seront toujours là. Donc, ma préférence est de leur montrer comment se servir d’un téléphone correctement. Donc, s’ils se servent de leur téléphone pour texter durant les cours, à ce moment-là il faut un cours sur le respect. C’est pas en enlevant le téléphone. Il faut leur montrer que, quand on est en interaction avec les autres, il y a des marques de respect. Donc, il faut regarder l’usage qu’ils en font, comment ça correspond aux normes de la société et qu’on doit agir. Et aussi c’est un outil très, très, très puissant. Donc, leur montrer comment tu peux t’en servir. Plus tôt dans l’année, j’ai montré aux élèves comment prendre des bonnes photos, qu’est-ce qu’on peut faire avec ces photos-là et comment on peut s’en servir dans nos projets scolaires plutôt que de tout simplement interdire le téléphone. Je pense de plus en plus que plus on l’interdit, plus que ça donne envie de le faire. Plus on leur montre comment s’en servir de façon judicieuse, plus ils vont être efficaces. Donc, je pense que cette notion de tout simplement l’enlever, c’est d’essayer de figer l’histoire.

Patricia Kosseim:

Ç’a beaucoup de sens, votre approche.

What strategies do you think are more effective in teaching students about abstract concepts like privacy or safety and digital citizenship?

Elyane Ruel:

So, I think the first thing is to actually take the abstraction out of it and to really bring it down to earth. So, when you do this, what happens? What are the cause effects? To have really explicit lessons without scaring the kids to be really honest with them and to make it very practical. Because things like privacy, it can seem like very abstract notion, but knowing what is yours is yours.

And again, to me there’s actually a lot of connections between privacy and the social-emotional learning, teaching them about consent and that you have the right to say no to sharing information like that. So, I think it is whenever possible bringing it down really concretes and they understand it.

Another thing is giving them the language and actually one of the lessons that you have, giving them the vocabulary to talk about these things so that they actually know that that was cyber bullying or this is phishing or to know that cookies are actually not something that you eat. They can be, but they’re not necessarily. So, explicitly teaching them the vocabulary so that they are able to talk about it makes it a lot more accessible.

Patricia Kosseim:

Well, you’re obviously doing a good job because these kids are very smart, but also very insightful about privacy and really surprised me with how sophisticated they are in talking about it and comfortable they are talking about it. So, that’s a reflection on your good work.

Elyane Ruel:

Thank you. We have a very, very supportive parent community and we also have a group of teachers and parents that balance technology well, that there’s a time and place for it. Sometimes pen and pencil has its purpose. Sometimes a computer does. And I think helping the kids understand that so they’re not reliant on one or the other helps. And it’s a lot more about conversations than shaming. So, yeah, they are incredibly mature and lovely and reasonable.

Patricia Kosseim:

And I can see you’re very proud of them. I think you mentioned you use the IPC’s Privacy Pursuit Lesson Plans at Westboro. What’s been the response from teachers and students who’ve used these tools or these kits?

Elyane Ruel:

So, we’ve used it more with the older kids and it’s actually been fascinating because it’s been reinforcing a lot of what they know, but it’s just a slightly different angle, a different perspective. I did one I believe two weeks ago on who’s actually benefiting from this app or website and so on. And it was quite interesting because the students were very aware that sometimes the games that they get for free, they know that they’re getting it because of the marketing behind it. And they were actually able to articulate, it’s like, “Yeah, but we figured out the way to bypass the ads,” or “We just ignore the ads or we flip our phone over.”

So, I think it brings to surface a lot of conversations to just increase awareness. And I sincerely believe that if the kids have the language to talk about things, they’re a lot more empowered to address them.

Patricia Kosseim:

So, there are lesson plans that accompany the booklet for teachers of students from grades two through eight. And so, if ever you do use it for the younger groups, you’ll let us know how it works out and give us your feedback.

Elyane Ruel:

I think a merit, too, is the lesson plans, they’re also designed that you can just walk in and use them. They’re ready to go off the shelf, just use, which many educators appreciate. What I also appreciate is that they can also be used as a springboard. They can be. So, for example, I did one again with the older students, where we started about what are some of the measures that you can take to protect your privacy? And now they’re going to go use Canva to make a poster that they’re going to share with younger kids on how to do it.

So, the second part of it wouldn’t necessarily be in there, but the content in the springboard is definitely there to allow teachers to put their own flavor on it.

Patricia Kosseim:

And have those further conversations. The IPC, or my office, has also released a draft digital privacy charter for Ontario schools, and as you know, it includes 12 voluntary commitments to enhance digital privacy support for young people. What do you think, Elyane, first of all, about the commitments that we set out in this draft and do you see schools being able to sign on to supporting these commitments?

Elyane Ruel:

I definitely think that schools can sign on and all schools are on a continuum of implementation and some things, I think the majority, I would like to hope that schools would be able to say, “Yes, it’s not a problem because to me this is good common sense stuff.” And I would love to see it in a broader community sense. And I think one of the reasons why we’ve been so successful here is that we have the parents involved in the conversation, too.

I always view schools as one piece in the community. I really appreciate how at some point you reference students’ voice. And I think giving them that voice of what are they seeing, what are they perceiving, what are they worried about, how can they address it, is incredibly powerful. So, my only suggestion is I would love to see this in kid-friendly wording. So, I think it’s really well written for educators and adults and I think like a kid-friendly version of it, which you kind of have in your teaching package, but I think that would be incredibly powerful.

Patricia Kosseim:

Great. Well, thank you for that suggestion and I’m taking that home with me, so thank you so much. I guess, just a last question to end on, and it’s one I ask all my guests and I refer it back to our strategic priorities. And the one that’s relevant of course to Westboro Academy is our strategic priority on children and youth in a digital world. And our goal in that area is to champion the access and privacy rights of Ontario’s children and youth by promoting their digital literacy and expansion of their digital rights, while also holding public institutions accountable for protecting the children and youth that they serve.

So, as an educator, with all the experience you have, do you have any advice for me, for my office? What are key areas you recommend that we should focus on to effectively advance this goal?

Elyane Ruel:

I think the first thing is don’t stop. That there is definitely a need and the internet is incredibly confusing and incredibly attractive and it’s only going to get more attractive. To Gaja’s point earlier, AI is only going to make it more complicated. So, first thing, don’t stop. I think also anything that we can do to make it kid-friendly because they think differently than our generation. So, anything that we can do to put in that video format that’s more accessible to them without necessarily going too cartoony and with kids, it’s often difficult to make a child accessible but not baby-ish.

Patricia Kosseim:

I’m going to take that to heart because we have set up a youth advisory council of students between the ages of 15 and 25 and they really are our focus group onto the world. And we ask them to give us their lens on our educational materials to make it more accessible and kid friendly and relevant like the kids said today. Otherwise, if it’s too technical, they just zone out. But if it’s relatable and if it’s in a language they understand and it’s fun, then they’re more likely to tune an in. So, thank you for that. And I will put the mission to our youth advisory council because they’re a phenomenal resource for us and for Ontarians.

Elyane Ruel:

I think the other thing, too, often I see [inaudible 00:36:56] is when people treat something as a technological problem because it involves technology to me so much about, this is about social-emotional learning and learning respect and learning self-regulation and the apps, they’re designed to catch you up. They’re designed to make you give the information. So, I think anything that we can do to help the kids develop their own independence and to develop their own voice, to be able to say no or to say yes in an appropriate manner and that you can do without any technology at all.

So, I think it’s a bit unfair that technology’s like, “Let’s just change our computers.” The problem isn’t the computer. It’s that the students maybe haven’t had the opportunity to learn the skills to manage that platform.

Patricia Kosseim:

Right. And we as adults, as educators, as parents, as regulators, our role is to support them in that so that they’re not alone carrying this burden, but well-supported and can make those self-regulatory choices with the information they need and want. Obviously, they’ve asked for it throughout our conversation today, so it’s a great note to end on. Thank you so much, Elyane.

Elyane Ruel:

Thank you, my pleasure.

Patricia Kosseim:

It was a real honor and pleasure for me to come to your school in person and I hope the kids have fun. I certainly did. And I want to thank you in particular for being so insightful and open and honest about your great work in guiding these young students into the digital age.

For listeners who are interested in teaching young students about privacy, whether at home or in the classroom, the IPC has free activity books and lesson plans available on our website at ipc.on.ca. And if you’re looking for assistance and general information about Ontario’s access and privacy laws, you can always call or email our office.

Well, that’s a wrap, folks from Westboro Academy here in Ottawa. Thanks for listening and until next time.

I’m Patricia Kosseim, Ontario’s Information and Privacy Commissioner and this has been Info Matters. If you enjoyed the podcast, leave us a rating or review. If there’s an access or privacy topic you’d like us to explore on a future episode, we’d love to hear from you. Send us a tweet @IPCinfoprivacy or email us at @email. Thanks for listening and please join us again for more conversations about people, privacy and access to information. If it matters to you, it matters to me.